struggling with eternal security
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I am questioning eternal security… and would love to hear your point of view backed by scripture.
When asked about this today I opened into Revelations
“To the angel of the church in Sardis. I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are DEAD! Be watchful and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. Remember therefore how you have received and heard, holdfast and repent. I come upon you as a thief! You have a few names who have not defiled their garments and they shall walk with Me in white. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments and I WILL NOT BLOT out his name from the Book of Life!”
Does Justification equal Salvation?
I started reading a bit today after being challenged and came up with something very interesting…
the usage of the greek word nikao in Revelation 2-3 is that it is found in the present tense form. In fact – The word is found 28 times in the New Testament with 17 references comingout of Revelation alone and 9 of those 17 are found in chapters 2-3 of Revelation. John’s usage of nikao could be translated then “the one overcoming” since the disciple has not yet finished the fight of faith. Did John use this term under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to show that the Christian life is one of pain, struggle, and a fight to remain eternally secure?
If this is the case – than eternal security is not actually a truth? is it?
5 Point Calvinists and others who hold to eternal security or perseverance of the saints often point out that 1 John 5:4-5 teaches that all true believers are also over-comers. I can agree with them on this point – but I am not sure how that lays with the contect of the Powerful text in Revelation 2-3 where we are taught that one must continue in the faith. Is it fair to say that we either overcome or we are overcome?
Those who do overcome will inherit the kingdom but those who fail to overcome will inherit only eternal destruction (Revelation 21:7-8)
I think either way we can all agree on this statement: Following Jesus is not a passive obedience to Christ Jesus – but rather Active as the greek word nikao suggests. And if we can agree on this statement then how does that comply with eternal security.
Today, after having a great lunch with what I am hoping will become a mentor and great friend, I was posed a question on Eternal Security. And While I personally have come to a personal realization that Eternal Security is truth… I was challenged. I examined my belief and found my defense on the eternal security theology was not based upon Christ Jesus but rather something that God simply just handed to me.
While I have said I believe Salvation is through Faith and not of works… then I need to ask myself if faithfulness to God’s Word (since In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was God- therefore it is faithfulness in God ) and Obedience in God’s Word is certainly not required to have eternal security if it is simply a gift. Is it ?
Jesus alone is the way, the truth, and the life that no one comes to the Father but through Him (John 14:6)
Further examination I find that Jesus and His role in the Trinity to the follower is:
- Our Salvation (2 Timothy 1:9)
- Our Savior (Galatians 1:4)
- Our Righteousness before God (Romans 3:22)
- Our redemption and holiness (1 Corinthians 6:11)
- In Whom we are justified (Romans 3:24; 5:1)
- Our Security is found in Jesus Christ and In Christ alone… (Romans 8:37-39)
Our Security lies in the power of God (1 Peter 1:5) not in dogma or a man-made doctrine.
Working for “Vine Hosting”, and having been the person who chose the organizations name – I have a passage of scripture that God has laid on my heart as special.
“I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.”
- John 15:5-6 (ESV)
I am wondering if this passage teaches that the believer must abide in Christ and failure to do so results in destruction.
Your thoughts:
PS – please note I have an updated comment below worth reading before commenting
Although I just read this and obviously can’t fully form all my thoughts at this point… I do think it’s probably important to examining that John 15 Christ is talking to Jews. Who are the original vine, clearly Jesus is pruning the vine with the removal of the branches that are not bearing fruit (of which would be the majority of the “current Jewish followers”). However, we are the branches that were graphed in.
This was a very volatile time in the development of the Christian faith, and Christ is trying to instruct his followers that it is not simply your lineage or lifestyle that have made you a part of the faith. Being a child of Abraham is not the qualifying piece to acceptance in the kingdom.
As for eternal security, my initial thoughts would be this… IF in fact we don’t have eternal security then I’m left with three options…
1. I will never achieve it, because at my core I sin, I have a sin nature, therefore I am doomed if it’s up to me.
2. Christs standards alter at the moment of initial confession, therefore God is not pure and does allow sin before him.
3. I become self-rightous and determine that these sinful things I do aren’t “that bad”
No matter which one of these three we choose, we lessen the Savior and put the focus on our behavior and our ability, therefore taking Praise from God and giving it to our selves.
Back up on the Romans 8 passage to verse 30: “And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
Can’t break the chain. If he chose you, he called you, then justified you, and will glorify you.
Besides, you can’t come to God without Him, what makes you think you could do anything to be separated from him again?
Oh, and you can’t fight to stay eternally secure
Either you are, and will always be, or you’re not, and never were. To illustrate:
You were saved and gained “eternal life.” Then you did whatever one does to lose one’s salvation (huh?!), and all of a sudden you don’t have eternal life anymore. But if you don’t have eternal life now, you didn’t have it before, or it wouldn’t have been eternal then since you wouldn’t have it forever.
That’s what makes God so great! He saved us and sealed us by His Spirit, who also intercedes for us, just like Christ, and nothing I do will ever change that (thankfully!).
I’m pretty confident I feel you can loose your salvation. All the verses you listed point that direction, but I think you missed the clearest, Hebrews 6:4-6. I have heard many people give alternate interpretations to what exactly those verses are saying, but when you come down to it, I think it is fairly clear whether we like it or not.
Hebrews 6:4-6
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
People try to pass over these verses claiming they speak of those who were “never really saved to begin with”, but then how could you “fall away” from a place you have never been… and why would you need to renew yourself to repentance. Holes in calvinistic theology have led respected scholars such as RC Sproul to suggest that this only a hypothetical scenario which explains what would happen if someone fell away, even though in his opinion it is not really possible or that the statement made in 4-6 is being set up as an existing argument the writer of Hebrews tries to dismantle. That just seems very out of place in the text to me. I have heard no interpretations that fit besides the obvious.
While I certainly believe the concept of loosing your salvation has been abused in the past, (for instance every time you sin you loose it) I still think there is something to this. I believe you can choose to resist the Holy Spirit,(Matt.23:37, Acts 7:51, 1 Tim 1:19, Mat. 13:20-21) which is also goes against the 5 points of Calvinism. Eventually you can decide never to follow the will of God, only your own will. I think the loss of salvation is a conscious decision you have to make to stop the Holy Spirit form transforming you into the likeness of Christ, you are not stunting your growth in this situation you are halting it and intentionally headed the other direction. I believe it is rare, although I do believe it can happen. In spite of that, I still believe we can have assurance in Christ if we are making a conscious effort to remain in him. Of course we have to stand serious guard that that belied doesn’t encourage us to believe in a heretical salvation by works doctrine.
Some other other good passages that are helpful in this discussion…
Hebrews 10:26-31
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
II Peter 2:20-22
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”
What I am wondering is as follows:
Perhaps the point of Hebrews 6 is that we don’t earn our salvation – but that there is a point at which we can reject our salvation. Kind of like the unpardonable sin.
I am tending towards the position that God’s eternal life is found only in Jesus Christ – The Living Son of God – and that His eternal life is enjoined only to those who are faithfully abiding in Christ and remain IN HIM … and that the simple literal meaning of the scriptures where the believers do not unconditionally own eternal life in themselves, but rather that it is the sole possession of God and God alone who grants it to those who “endure until the end” (Matt. 24:13) is truth.
Moving forward with:
John 15:1-2 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.”
If he takes the branch away – that is a literal “purge” of the branch … is it not?
If Christ’s sacrifice was to release men from the power of sin I am of the opinion that perhaps He really get’s upset with those who continue in it… This is not a question of being 100% pure but rather continually in Christ.
While this is the earliest testament to sin – Eve eating of the tree of Good and Evil Satan told Eve she would ‘surely’ not die (spiritually)… of course Some argue “that is old testament vs new covenant…”
Here is where I am now:
We are saved by grace (Eph. 2:8,9)
but we can fall from grace (Gal. 5:2-4).
We are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1)
but our faith can become shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19,20) and cease to exist (Lk. 8:13; Rom. 11:19-23).
We are not under the law (Rom. 6:14,15)
but if you live according to the sinful nature you will die (Rom. 8:13).
Paul taught against legalism (Gal. 5:3,4)
but he also taught that no immoral, impure or greedy person has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God (Eph. 5:5-7).
We are not saved by works (Eph. 2:8,9)
but to reap eternal life and not destruction we must sow to please the Spirit and not the sinful nature (Gal. 6:8,9).
God is faithful to us (1 Jn. 1:9; 1 Cor. 10:13)
but we must be faithful to him to the very end of our lives to escape hell or second death (Rev. 2:10,11).
God surely loves us (Jn. 3:16; Mk. 10:21; Rom. 8:35-39)
but those who inherit the kingdom of God love God (Jam 2:5; 1 Cor. 2:9)
to Love God means to obey his commands (Jn. 14:15; 1 Jn. 5:3).
We have freedom in Christ (Gal. 5:1)
but this freedom is not to indulge the sinful nature (Gal. 5:13; 1 Pet 2:16).
continued thoughts as I work through this are welcomed…
Into the Son is a great read !
In short – it is salvation through Grace not works… it is not a salvation by perfection but rather a holiness Through JESUS CHRIST and our relationship with Him.
One of the wonderful, mysterious, and frustrating things about scripture is that it’s a pretty open-ended document in many ways. Christoph aptly speaks of the election – AKA, predestination – and backs it up nicely with scripture. For the record, there are many more scriptures that support that doctrine that he doesn’t cite. Neither Jesse nor Glenn really speaks to the “whosoever will” flip side of election, but both imply it (the thread, after all, IS about eternal security). And the “whosoever will” doctrine is also fully supported by scripture. Both “sides” of these arguments are quite able to discount the other’s propositions using scripture as well. So, which side holds the big “T” truth?
In the good news, bad news department – we cannot, if fact, know for certain (though advocates of both sides claim otherwise). If we COULD know for certain, then one side or the other would have fallen into disrepute over the years, but both Presbyterians and Methodists seem to be able to hold their heads high (at least theologically). And though it is good and necessary to wrestle with these questions, I wonder, just occasionally, if majoring on these differences haven’t ultimately wounded the church in the West. Those outside the church look at us and watch while we square off on issues that, in the end, have little to do with salvation or discipleship in actual fact, and or that cannot be definitely defined and “proven.” Do we do good works to get into heaven or do we do good works because that’s what grace-filled Christ followers do out of devotion, gratefulness, etc? Either way, works seem to matter.
The list of these issues can go on … and again, it’s important that we study them intently, or at least that someone is studying them intently. But for the rest of the church, I wonder if perhaps we focused on conspicuously doing good works in Jesus’ name (let our lights shine on the hillside, when people see your good works, etc.) if ultimately the church in the West would be a lot better off.
However, all that being said and done, I think the answer is we’re elected to do good works that we were preordained to do and whosoever will had better be about those works … just in case.
A great website to refute the erroneous false gospel and counterfeit grace message of eternal security is http://www.EOMin.Org God bless you.
I HAVE READ CHARLES STANLEYS BOOK ON ETERNAL SECURITY.HE DID DO A GREAT JOB FRAMING THE OVERALL DEBATE BUT HE CONCLUDES IN ONE SECTION THAT IF A BELIEVER STOPS BELIEVING THAT HE IS STILL TECHNICALLY SAVED. HE MUST KNOW BIBLICAL GREEK AS WELL AS ANYONE. EVERY TIME IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT THE WORD BELIEVE IS MENTIONED IN REGARD TO SALVATION IT IS IN THE SUPER IMPERATIVE VERB TENSE OR IN OTHER WORDS THE PERFECT TENSE OF THE WORD.THIS DENOTES CONTINUOUS ACTION.BELIEF MUST BE CONTINUOUS. HEBREWS 6 IS AN ENDLESS FAVORITE OF MINE LIKE A LOT OF CHRISTIANS.TO PARAPHRASE ITS WARNING ITS LETS GET IT TOGETHER FOLKS AS CHRISTIANS AND NOT FALL BACK. GOD BLESS MISTER STANLEY AND MORE POWER TO ALL OF YOU IN YOUR WALK WITH CHRIST.